Episode 635- Star Wars Andor Part 2 review

0:06 King Ways Fox Beer look is acting very weird. Captain Pike's this goes wife King ons and me after like Boimer, Tendi Starbaransom is very hard, spot Drive Black Alert, Tortillo has gone perserve It's bad laugh Edward is any is Pakistan Wolfs were Checkov's wearing Red Teeter's cat Kim packsack. You has had enough for that, BENI of make it. So everybody, let's. Go about the series as upon. Now about the series.

0:48 I'm coming to you art services now talk about the series Cooks, the Harmless show Loud. What mean, Trekkies and Trekkers around the globe and the occasional Star Wars fan as well. It is Thursday, May A, twenty twenty five. Welcome the trek Talking and Beyond, Episode six hundred and thirty five. I'm your most excellent host, Uncle Jim. I'm good and I like ecology. Guys, my incredible, my awesome trucking Portland with our very own toy all. How you doing? I get that, I understand that completely. And also from Portland, yeah, that'll happen from time to time. And also from Portland, we have our very own miracle worker David. How you doing tonight, David.

1:55 I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good. I found out that I was a noome. Thank you. Oh okay, you'll learn something new every day. I'll get our genetics run at some point. Oh boy. And sticking with our Portland theme, yeah, I would like to say welcome to the podcast to Eric, was also at Portland. How you doing tonight, Eric. I'm doing pretty good, man. I got my shelves back up here. I switched some stuff out. I got my playmates enterprise up here. Now, I got my DS nine positions so you can see it a little bit better. But just to make sure that the elephant in the room is taken care of. Yes, I did overtrim my mustache just a little bit. But it'll look good in about a week or so.

2:35 Oh are we going to have to have an Eric's mustache poll now for the next time. I'm just saying they're there there. I'm very careful about how I keep my mustache. And this morning I was I was doing one of those things where I was like, and. I was like, now, I got to cut the whole thing down anyway. All right, all right, and let's swing out to Las Vegas and check out with Charles, how's your mustache? Charles hit a little bit of trimming incident with it earlier in the week. I think we got I think we finally got the rein out for a little while and the wind out, and I think things are getting a little better. Excellent. I see the palm trees, which is a good thing. Ye, very good thing. So guys, uh, we're looking to have a some female opinions on the podcast here. I've been putting a posts on our Facebook page and sharing them all over the place. If you would like to be on the show, just go to trek Talking dot com, click on the little green talkback mic in the bottom right hand corner and record us a message. Tell us why you would like to join us on the show, and hopefully we'll pick you and you can join us on Trek Talking and beyond. We'd love to have you.

3:47 We'd also love you to have you help us run the podcast by become a bid by becoming a patron on Patreon. That's right, we have a Patreon page Patreon dot com back slash Trek Talking Podcast. Go over there and for only two dollars a month, two dollars, that's right, Cheaper than a cup of coffee at McDonald's. You can help support this podcast, and there's all kinds of great stuff that you can find over there as well. If you don't want to become a patron, you can find a link to our PayPal account and make any type of donation that you would like. We would really appreciate that. So on tonight's podcast, we're going to be talking about and Or Part two episodes four, five, and six. And as you can see, I got my Star Wars shirt on tonight, I'm ready to go. We also have our Fans shout outs where we thank fans just like you all around the globe for listening and supporting our podcast.

4:43 We have our Star Trek polls. How far would you go to save a friend or a loved one? I wonder. How? We also have Star Trek Birthday is what Star Trek actor do you share a birthday with? Well find out on our Star Trek Birthday section and tonight and what's going on around the Star Trek universe. Will William Shatner ever make a director's cut of Star Trek five the Final Frontier? Well, I personally hope that he does, but you can find out tonight we also have We also have a Pike is making appearents in one twelfth scale and Paul will tell you all about that. And Enterprise went out with a whimper. I wonder why, and I think that Charles is going to tell us about that on our Star Trek News section. And you can head over to our Facebook page Trek Talking and Beyond, and at the top of the page you'll see a pinpost with the Livelong and Prosper logo asking you to tell us where you're listening from. Just fill that out there least some emojis because that gets my attention, and then tune into the next episode and listen to our fans shout out section see if your name is mentioned. So, Eric, would you like to get us started with our fans shout outs for tonight?

5:56 I absolutely would. My very first fan shout out goes out to I believe the most what I'll consider remote area that I think We've got a fan shout out going out to. We are saying hello this week to Barry Bruce Eiinish, who is saying hello to us from Pa'll watch a come on right on the Newfoundland border up there in Quebec. Canada just a smidge below that fifty fifth parallel, so we're talking northern remote Quebec area. Barry Bruce Eiinish. It is so satisfying to know that the Internet has brought our message to the masses, and even out there in an area that is pretty far from any big cities.

6:39 You are familiar with our podcast and familiar of course with Star Trek because it is a global phenomenon. As Paul often likes to remind us, thank you so much for listening to our podcast and for supporting us. Let me just say that, despite what our politics might say at the moment, I love Canada summers and I really really appreciate all of the support from our brothers and sisters north of the border there. So thank you, Barry Bruce Eiinish. This week, thank you as well to Alexandro Petrello, who's saying hello to us from Campagna City in Sal Paulo, Brazil, and they sent us a livelong and prosper a peace sign and some horns. Yeah, Alexandro, thank you so much.

7:21 Rock and roll right back to you. I love it when somebody gets a little bit intense about it, because if you haven't noticed I could. Be that way sometimes. Thank you so much for supporting our podcast. Thank you as well this week to Harvey Goldstein, who's saying hello to us from Peterborough in the UK. We always have tons and tons of support from our brothers and sisters just across the pond, and you're sending us that beautiful, livelong and prosper sign, and I say peace and long life to you, Harvey. And last but not least, on my list, we are saying hello this week to David Wollanscroft, who is also in the UK, hailing from Manchester, Lancashire. They say you'll live long and prosper, as Spock would say, with a hand salute, and they sent us myriad emojis.

8:08 We've got a person lifting weights, we've got a strong arm, we've got some thank you hands, and we've got a fox. And a bee. I wish I could read that as a sentence. I'm sure there's a hidden message in there. David. Maybe you should, you know. Send us another message to let us know what all those emojis meant. But we really really liked them, and we really really appreciate our support from all the folks over there in the UK. So, David Wallanscroft, thank you so much for saying hello this week. And Charles, I'm gonna spin that globe and send it over to you brother. Thank you. Eric. Let's start off with a warm welcome from Virginia Beach, Virginia. Dave Flanagan. Didn't we have.

8:48 A crew member by flanagain back in Tea? Absolutely did? Yep? Yep a red shirt? Yeah, ah, hope Dave's not a red shirt. Also, welcome to from northeast Texas. Doug Bates. Welcome, Doug. Welcome from Fort Laudville, Florida from his little tricky corner. Brett Michael. Do you sing? Brett? I'm sure you've heard that joke before. And from one of my favorite visiting cities, Seattle, Washington. Welcome, Greg Nichols.

9:33 Glad to have you here, Greg, David, who's on your list? Yeah? Thank Charles. I would like to say and sorry for butchering the name. I'm trying to pronounce you as best I could, but from Wie Tristany, I think that's how you pronounced it. But she's hailing in from Michigan. And thanks for the toy and listening to a podcast, So yeah, next time, my list is Elma Claude, Livelong and Poplar Pointrage, Wisconsin, USA. Next time my list is Martin Rolo from Waterbury, Connecticut.

10:16 Thanks for you all for listening. And last time my list is Todd Earn from Mississippi. And I think we're having trouble with Paul right now, so I'm assuming we can justtion this. Off to Eric. Absolutely, I will cover Paul for now till he can get his sech issues taken care of. We would love to say hello to somebody all the way over in the Netherlands. Yes, that amazing country where over fifty percent of the land area is below sea level. Did you know that that's right? The Dutch are all about dams levies. In fact, they're the world leaders in floating architecture. Can you tell him Dirden out as an architect a little bit here? Well, one way or another, We're gonna say hello this week to Hank de Brovji, who's saying hello to us from Nizmegen in the Netherlands. And Hank, we really appreciate your support over there. Your country is one of those ones that I really really like to visit because it's so unique in the world. In terms of how the people live, how the people eat, and how the people build their dwellings. Thank you so much for supporting our podcast. Saying hello this week to top fan Steve a Heris, who's also over in the UK, England in the Eastern Midlands. Steve, you are a top fan and that means you interact with us a lot on our new ish Facebook page and we really really appreciate your support. Hopefully you're spending lots of thumbs up on all of Jim's amazing posts every week. Hello as well this week to Ice and Carl, who's hailing on all

11:48 frequencies from hanover Deutsche Land. Ice, and thank you so much for saying hello to us from right in the middle of Europe. There. Germany has so many cool different areas, so many places to visit, and being about twenty five percent German myself, I can tell you that I love pretty much all of the food there as well. Thank you so much, Heysen Carl for saying hello to us this week. And last, but not least, on Paul's list, we're saying hello to Till Reloaded. That sounds like a contrived name to me, although I guess somebody's last name could be Reloaded, but Till Reloaded is saying hello to us from Austria. Grats a city in diarrhea to be Siah. I don't know what that means exactly, but Till we really appreciate your support.

12:34 And Austria is another one of those amazing countries out there that has been through so. Much throughout the years. But you have good food, good people, good architecture. Some of your palaces there are really really off the hook. Sorry I'm geeking out on architecture today, guys. I can't really help it. But when I hear about these places, all I think about is the types of buildings these people build. So Till Reloaded, thank you so much for supporting our podcast. I'm gonna spin that globe and Jim's gonna bring it back state side. Thank you so much, Eric, and we hope that Paul finds a way to rejoin us because the show's just not the same without Paul, and we need someone to do our awesome Star Wars story for us. So Paul, get that thing of work and buddy. So while we're waiting for Paul, I want to say hello and thank you to Alan Steven who's listening to us in Maine, the home of Stephen King. We also want to stay hello to Stephanie Rourke who's listening to us in Michigan.

13:26 Thank you, Stephanie. And I have a top fan on my list. That means that Brandon Cowles interacts with us a lot on our Facebook page, answering polls, leaving comments that kind of thing. Thank you so much, Brandon, and he's from Kentucky, Live Long, and prosper And last but not least on my list, I'd like to say hello and thank you to Jerry Powell who's listening to us in Costa Mesa, California. Thank you so much, Jerry. And if you would like to be mentioned on a future fan shout out, please head over to our Facebook page Trek Talking and beyond. You'll see the Livelong, and Prosper pin to the top of the page. Just tell us where you're listening from and if you leave some emojis, that usually gets my attention. And when you see your heart next to your name from Trek Talking, you want to tune into the next podcast and hear your name mentioned on a fan shout out. And with that all done, it's time for our Star Trek polls.

14:28 Lin Lin Lin you know me like no win what you thought about the showlen. We try to share. Your opinions with all of our minions out there because they listen worldwid. So tell us just what you think. Get together, we. Will all Trey Canara and robulin An. All right, guys. Every week on our Facebook page, I like to post lots of some fun ones, some tough ones, some interesting ones. You can go there and find all the polls and vote on the poles and without any further ado David Roll the tape.

15:11 Lieutenant Torres won't allow you as to have anything to do with her treatment because of that majorit. We've gathered some corroborating evidence you committed a series of atrocities during the Kardassian War. Thousands of Majorans died on your surgical tables. That's absurd. I'm only a hologram, and I have no memory of those events. Your program, despite all its brilliance, is based on his work, and now we're reaping. The benefits of those experiments. Medically, ethically, it's wrong. We may have to delete your program. What about our patient? I suppose I'd have to try and treat her on my own no offense, but you need me.

15:55 I realized that you're a physician. You know there's always a price to pay for the advancement of medical science. Sometimes that price is too high. Torture. I cured the fostosa virus, didn't I. So these experiments you say I conducted obviously helped me devise a treatment. Doesn't justify using people in laboratory experiments. During the occupation, I was forced to improvise. I used what resources. I had, and ethical considerations. Ethics are arbitrary. How do you suppose your own database was developed? Half the medical knowledge acquired on Earth came through experiments on lower animals.

16:38 But not people. It's convenient to draw a line between higher and lower species, isn't it? Your kind of barbarism ended a long time ago, or at least it should happen. What difference does it make how long ago the research occurred. What matters is that we can use it to help patients today. Are you going to delete. My program and all of the research it contains, or are we going to use it to save Balana's life? Still wrestling with your ethical subroutines. Take my advice. It's a waste of time. What's important is that we saved. Two lives today.

17:18 You need me delete my program, and you violate the first oath you took as a physician, do no harm. You have no right to say those words. You're going to erase my program, doctor, but you can never change the fact that you've already used some of my research. Where was your. Conscience when Balana was dying on that table? Ethics, morality, conscience? Funny how they all go out the airlock when we need something. Are you and I really so different? Wow? What a deep, deep, deep one? All right, Eric, So for those of you who have guessed, what is the poll question this week?

18:01 Eric, Yeah, this is a really good one. In the Voyager episode Nothing Human, which is not one of those episodes that people think of when they think of best Voyager episodes, but I think that set of clips might have strayed into the area of some of the best Voyager we've seen. Bolonataures is joined with a scorpion like creature and removing it will kill them both. The doctor programs the Holidack to recreate the brilliant Cardassian exobiologist Krell Massett Masset made advances in medical research by experimenting on Bajorans during the Cardassian occupation of Beijor. The doctor used the unethically obtained knowledge to save her. Would you have done the same? And eighty seven percent of our poll responders said yes, they would have used that unethically obtained knowledge to save Bolonatres. Thirteen percent said that they would not.

18:59 And as is my privilege as the poll reader, I will say that I one hundred percent agree with the minions on this one. Listen, it's clear that this hologram and voyager does a nice job of kind of separating the personal choice of this aspect of the question by making this guy a hologram, right. I think that they probably could have hit a little bit harder with this episode had they actually made it a person, a real sentient person that was not programmed to do the things that they did, somebody who actually had to choose to experiment on Bajoran's But generally speaking, once the deed is done, if you can use that research to save other people, then I think you should. Now there are plenty in the doctor, actually not the doctor, but the other doctor.

19:51 Massette actually makes this point in this clip where he says, you know, you used to experiment on animals back in the day, and there's there are plenty of vgans in our society, for example, that would say that is not only completely unethical, but we shouldn't benefit from that, and we should actually reject the results that we get from that sort of stuff. But in my mind's I once the deed is done, you should, uh, you should use what knowledge you have to save other people. Does that mean you should keep doing unethical things. No, let's be clear, you should stop the process of doing unethical things. But if it's been done, it feels to me like it's okay to use that knowledge. I don't know what do you guys think?

20:35 Yeah, I agree with you. I'm thinking in the same way that you explained it, because why not use something to save somebody's life there? Why throw it away? You know? I mean, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of ethical questions that might come up for all sorts of different things. But I think I have to agree with the million John this. Yeah, this, I think much that here was. And you know. What's the word I agree with the minion I kind of I'm trying to remember what he did now, but yeah, so uh yeah, I think I think you're right, Eric, Yeah, it's uh, he should be using the knowledge that they've already obtained.

21:26 All right, let's back on technological weirdness going. For some reason, I'm only on this app. I don't know why, but that seems to be. And this is the this is the first time problem in the. Past hopefully don't work. Yeah, I don't remember this episode very well, but but if I'm getting the gist of it, basically, it's like the malfeasance is in his past. It's already been done, right, so. And he's a hologram and was actually programmed to experiment. So it's just you know, the knowledge.

22:07 It's a slippery slope ethics wise, but but you know, they're in a situation where they can't undo it, right. They can't apply an ethical litmus test to something retroactively, right, you can't go back and do it. It's just like if you you were digging around in like Hitler's bunker, right, and somehow you came to wha who knew it? But you know, Joseph Mengela discovered a cure for cancer and it was never and no one ever knew, right, would you keep that cure from cancer, cure for cancer hidden and not release it to the world just because it was developed during the reign of the Third Ranch and their ethical Yeah, I think I just came up with a good book idea. But you know, but you know, you know, I say, Okay, well, you know, it's almost like, you know, it may sound callous, but it's like, well, maybe some good can come out of the bad stuff sometimes, right, I mean, it's just there was a way to stop these experiments from happening. Of course you would want to do that, but all you can do is go forward from the present time where you are in time and space and try to do the right thing moving ahead, all right. So I don't know if I've answered the question or not, but those are just my thoughts.

23:26 Well, I think it did a good job, how about you, Charles. I kind of agree with Paul on this one. It's a slippery slope there. Ethics in general can be kind of slippery, and just dealing with he was talking about researching on animals and I kind of felt jumped the same direction Paul that It's like, yeah, I don't think it's the animal research that bothered me as much as some of the research done let's say, during World War Two. Yes, it's a positive research, it is.

24:08 I mean. One of the interesting things that Massett actually makes as a point there, which I've always kind of found personally challenging, is He's like, where do you draw the line? And I think that there are a lot of people who say, well, you know, what's the difference between a dog and a cow? Why do we eat the cow and not eat the dog? And you know, I'm not here to debate that right now, but it is kind of an arbitrary line that I think everybody sort of not only accepts for themselves, but accept as part of a sociological construct. And in this case, he makes a really good point that the question is, Okay, we have this knowledge available to us, will we use it?

24:50 You know? And the doctor's like, ah, it's unethical to use it, but yeah, but yeah. We have it. You know, should we save somebody's life with what we know? Even if it was a terrible way of obtaining that knowledge. Which I said, it's kind of. Possible going either way, though, I think the means do have the right idea was to save a life, especially in a situation where you can't get to other scientists to help you because they're out in middle of nowhere, all right for a main Bridge characters.

25:31 Yeah, her contract said she wasn't going to die, so it didn't matter. So I think one of the things in this particular part I think Paul is right. I think if it happened a generation or longer before you, I think you have an easier time accepting it. But in this particular episode, there was a clip. Part of this clip which David and I had to cut out is one of the Bajoran members of the crew from the Mind Key. His parents had been tortured and murdered by Massette on Beajor, and he was completely against the whole thing because for him it was personal. And I think I think you draw the line at time. I think that's where the line gets drawn because it's hard for us. We could try to understand it and try to figure it out, but it's hard for us to truly, you know, feel it because it didn't directly affect us because we weren't even born at that time, and you know, nobody in our families would have been you know that our currently life would have been around during that time, so the personal effect on us isn't there, which and when you remove that, it's an easy decision to make.

26:47 When you insert that, that makes it very difficult. And so I think that the minions are right. You use it if you can. But I think if if this had happened sooner, I think that it would have been no, because the pain is too fresh, you know. I mean, just as an example, I lost my aunt in the World Trade Center. She was on the eighty fourth floor and disintegrated. Pooh, nothing left of her. They had an empty coffin. All they found was some DNA left of her. That affects me personally. So on nine to eleven, I have a personal It's a different feeling for me than the rest of the country because it directly affected me. Not so much my daughter, but me, And I think this question is the same way I think people that would have remembered Massett and what he did, people that survived those concentration camps. You know, you have to respect their feelings. But in the long run, I think, yes, the minions are right, and I agree with them. So that's what I got to say. All right, So David, you want to run the next video.

28:00 Ten isograms. If I understand your calculations, that's enough to increase your warp factor by a zero point zero three percent for one month. Unfortunately, that boost wouldn't get you very figh so you'd need to replenish the supply, and that means killing another life form and then another. How many lives would it take to get you back to the alpha quadrant? I think you know the reason we're under attack. These aliens are trying to protect themselves from you. Sixty three that's how many more will take. Every time I'd sacrificed one of those lives, a part of me is lost as well.

28:40 I might believe that if I hadn't examined your research. These experiments were meticulous and they were brutal. If you'd felt any remorse, you'd never have continued. Starfleet Regulation three, paragraph twelve. In the event of a minute destruction, a captain is authorized to preserve the lives of his crew by any justifiable means. I doubt that protocol mass murder, and my judgment it did unacceptable. We had nothing. My ship was in pieces, our delithium was gone, we were running on thrusters. We hadn't eaten in sixteen days. We constructed a containment field that would prevent the life form from vanishing so quickly. But something went wrong.

29:23 Get it there. Which try to send it back? We can't, but it was too late. We examined the remains and discovered it could be converted. To enhance our propulsion systems. It was already dead. What would you have done? We traveled over ten thousand light years in less than two weeks. We'd found our salvation. How could we ignore it? By adhering to the oath you took his star Fleet officers to seek out life, not destroy it. It's easy to cling to. Princip when you're standing on a vessel with its bullheads intact man by a crew that's not starving.

30:04 It's never easy. But if we turn our backs on our principles, we stop being human. I'm putting an end to your experiments and you are here by relieved of your command. Wow. That's a pretty deep one. So if you haven't figured it out, what is our poll question? This week? Eric Genis is about one of my favorite episodes of Voyager ever. In the two part Voyager episode Equinox, Captain Ransom No, not the one who lifts weights all the time. Also stuck in the Delta quadrant, has been harvesting bio energy from nucleogenic creatures to enhance their warp drive, traversing ten thousand light years in a week. If you were him, would you have done the same thing to save your crew?

30:50 And this is a very interesting question to me, and I think we can probably talk about this for a long time. This is like one of those episodes that to me warrants almost an entire episode of trek talking. But fourteen percent of our Pole respondents said absolutely, Ransom did the right thing. He had to get his crew home and so whatever it takes. Was correct. And he actually references that in that clip that we just saw too. Starfred regulations say something about the captain can do whatever needs to happen to save his crew. So fourteen percent said yes. Eighty six percent of our respondents said no, Ransom was not justified in killing these nucleogenic creatures in order to get his crew home more quickly.

31:41 And so, you know, I have to say, this is one of the rare occasions when I actually agree with the minions on both of these poll questions. You know, if it's I think card moral compass, right. I think Jane Way is also a moral compass for us. She is presented with so many impossible situations during the course of Voyager, and she always finds that third option. And I think that that is a testament to the ingenuity that humans have where they see, you know, it's this or this, No, what if we did this instead? And that would be the better of the of the two options, is the third option. And here Ransom, I think, you know, he makes some good points. He's like, you would have done the same if your crew is starving, if people are dying, et cetera. You know, wouldn't you kill a creature?

32:42 And I would think that in this case it seems particularly poignant because we can't communicate with these creatures, and although they maybe appear sentient, you know, humans don't generally have a problem killing animals to eat them. If we can't. Communicate with a creature, we're less likely to save that creature's life in sacrifice of a human life. So I completely get what Ransom is saying here, and I think that's one of the amazing things about this episode is that, to me, you can argue this one either way. And probably be correct. I just tend to end up on the side of the minions on this one because I believe that Jane Way has the ability to always come up with that third option. Ransom may not have that ability, and maybe that's his failing as a captain, But in this case, I think he was wrong to kill these beings.

33:38 They don't say how many he has already killed, but they say he needs to kill another sixty three to make it happen. So anyway, that's my take on it. I'd love to hear what you guys have to say, because to me, this one does not have a cut and dry correct answer to it. Isn't it strange how both pole questions came from Voyager this week? I love it and has so many of these great ethical debates within it, as does Next Generation and a lot. Of good Star Trek. But yeah, yeah, I kind of like how they're both Voyager based this week. Well, so Massette said in the last clip that humans had no problem experimenting on animals, right, we heard him say that. We also, as Eric just said, we have no problem eating hamburgers and bacon and whatnot. So you know or you know any and you know meat for that where.

34:27 Carnivore do animals, well. There there are places where they eat dog, so there are and horses, I mean, so yeah, so we're not above that. But rabbits, squirrels, you know. But in the Federation, I don't think they do that anymore. I think everything is they don't kill animals to eat. It's replicated. So we've advanced. So so in the world of Star Trek, that's not happening and anymore. But we're answering this question as we're sitting here today right now, right. We're not pretending that we're in the future, right, We're answering it as if it was us. Right, So as if it was us, I would say, yeah, I think that a ransom was on the right track because these animal these are just animals, no different than a cow or pig, or a rabbit or a deer.

35:21 But do we know that do we know that they're not sentient? Well, we know we don't. We don't know that they that they were. We don't know that they aren't. If if they are, it changes everything. But if they aren't, it's no different than killing a cow making hamburger, you know, basically, So you know you can go either way. A cow is sentient. All these animals you're talking about eating are sentient, right, They just don't have what we recognize as the civilization. Right, they're all sentient beings. If you say that, you can't wouldn't that everything would be different if they were sentient, then then you would be committing genocide, not being a vegetarian, and a lot of people would hold up that concept there. So it's not just sentience, right, because we you know, obliterate sentient beings all the time. You know, oh my god, it's a spider on the counter, I'm gonna kill it. That's a sentient being.

36:14 Well, in the sense of measure of it is consciousness. It has thoughts, its will as emotions, right, I mean yeah, I mean not maybe not an insect, but but you know, but a mouse, for example, it has emotions, right, it does. It's a sentient being. A whale has a sentience, right. But it's just we choose to be very It's all about convenience for us as a species who were willing to kill, right, I mean, that is the history of human civilization. Well, I'm I'm wondering, Paul. So one of the ways that I, in my own personal life have started to define sentiences, and for better or worse, is by some of the principles set up in that amazing Next Generation episode Measure of a Man. And I don't think that consciousness and emotions are the line in the sand that sort of takes you from sentient to non sentient. Right, It's the it's the ability to understand who you are.

37:13 It's the ability to make decisions based on empathy and that sort of stuff. I think that that that episode kind of helps us define, you know, at least in a secular humanist kind of way, what sentience is. And I would I would I would argue that a spider is not sentient, you know, I don't. I don't know that a spider understands other spiders, or that there's another creature there, or that it's you know, actions have consequences or that kind of stuff. It depends on what what you ascribed to, right. A Buddhist would say that all life is worth preserving, right that Like if you mean, I have a difficult time killing bugs in my house, right, so I tend to catch them in a jar and let them go, right, Because it's like, you know, it's always like, what end of the spectrum are you on? Right, some gigantic being came to Earth, and from their perspective, I'm the spider.

38:13 I'd like to be let go, don't squish me, right, I'd like and I'd like, and not just because I'm perceived as being this insignificant little thing. I'd like to be given the benefit of the doubt that my existence manners, you know. But it's this, this whole thing with Ransom is really challenging because correct me if I'm wrong, right, But it's the equinox is the ship. Yeah, their ship is marooned out into the delta quadrit, just like the Voyager is, right, correct. So in that situation, I think, you know, ethics become a lot less important. I think when it's the struggle for survival for people, at least, that's the history of mankind. Right. If you have a bunch of folks and it's the it's the nineteenth century, and they're in the middle of the Canadian Yukon, right, and they're like, you know, a dozen people trying to get through the winter in a fort, right, and it's you know, twenty degrees below zero, but there's buffalo nearby is you know, rabbits nearby, Right, They're going to kill those animals to survive without compunction, right, because it's all a question of the circumstances are so dire, you know, all of a sudden, these high minded ethical things go out the window when it's a question of survival.

39:30 And I think that's kind of where Ransom seems like he's coming from that clip. I mean, I could only hear it, I couldn't see it, but he seems like he's coming from this point of like, hey, this is do or die. There's survival mode here. Yeah. Yeah, I was not aware that starf That was the first time I ever heard when Ransom said Starfleet has a mandate that captains can do anything they deem necessary. I don't remember ever hearing that anywhere except from Ransom in this episode, So that that's the new. One one, and he may be taking a liberal interpretation of that rule, but I think I think the rule is basically like safety of your crew is your number one prerogative as the captain of the ship, and so I think he's kind of extending that a little bit here in that statement that he said, you know, we can do anything to save our crew. I'm not sure that's specifically true. I haven't read the Federation charter.

40:25 But that's maybe not specifically true. Well, Tim Russ told us a very similar answer when you asked him about two X. I did, yeah, and Tim Russ basically said the same thing. It's the captain's responsibility to save the crew at all costs. Well, that's paraphrasing, but he said something very similar to that. Yeah, so maybe that is a thing. And I nodded and agreed because it was Tim Russ. But I didn't feel like, yeah. You might have to do a evil captain one day. Yeah, evil captain.

41:05 Well, and so that's a great question. Like I don't want to like spend too much time on this, but like that's a great question. Is Ransom and evil captain? Because of what he did? Right? I just I think we could debate that for like twenty minutes and nobody would. Be right or wrong. That's what That's why this episode is so amazed. It's like one of the top like ten Voyager episodes ever for sure. Yeah, if I remember the episode correctly, didn't Ransom come around at the end and sacrifice himself to so voyager could escape or something he did, I remember correctly, Yeah, and he sent his crew on the voyager so that they would. Survive, which was the third option, right, something like that.

41:46 Yeah, So Paul, what what did you hide with the minions or against. You know, I'm not really sure. That's what's so great about this question. I don't necessarily like just I've seen over the last few years the trouble we get into by aligning with sides and tribalism, and I'm trying to stay out of it, right, And there's just so much with these shows too. It's just like a lot of it fell as it reflects like the times that we live in. Right, It's just like pretty much right now, right, And we would say if like you asked, you know, I'm going to just pick a round number seventy eighty percent. Maybe most of us here, maybe we have different views of us on the trexperts. Right, are we throw capital punishment or are we against capital punishment? Do a lot of nodding, but.

42:41 Yeah, no, I've against it. Yeah, right for a pole question. Yeah, but here's the thing, right, I think where we are right now in the last like say, twenty years, I think we're mostly against it, I think for the most part. And it's kind of shocking where against right. Go watch The Ultimate Computer though. Okay, when Kirk is trying to mind f with the M five to get it to shut itself down, right, and he goes in there and he's saying, you know, you've committed that. He says, scan the ships. Is there any life on board? Right? And he goes, no life, and he goes, you've committed murder. And then Kirk says, what is the penalty for murder?

43:21 Like it's a universal thing? Right? And M five goes death, right, and. He says the times I mean. So apparently in whatever Kirk's era, right, and he goes, this unit must die and it kills itself. Right. Yeah, So, but in the sixties and in that you know, enlightened version of the Federation of Planets, right, apparently the capital punishment was still the law of the land everywhere, at least from Kirk's perspective. But you know, who knows. But it's just really interesting. I mean, you could just you know, dig a hole forever with these questions. It's crazy. We got Star Wars to talk. About in the episode in the Cage though in the episode the Cage, Admiral whatever his name was, says that the only death penalty left on the record on the books is visiting Tallows.

44:09 That's right, that's right. A little contradictory, yeah, a little bit. So, David, I know you're chomping at the bit here. So what do you think with dominions against dominions? Where do you fall on the spectrum? I'm I'm kind of both. It really depends, really, honestly, I would go off in the long thing, but we got to always talk about so I'm kind of in the middle. It really depends on the situation. I mean, just think of looking at Ransomtive. He thought he was the only one in the delta quiet, no help from home, no help him anywhere, and so he just thought what he had to do with best. So yeah, I would say that I'm kind of in the middle. It depends. All right, Well, let's swing out to the where the palm trees are swaying, and let's say what Charles has to say.

44:55 I was going to say I was waiting to get a chance, uh okay, and kind of feeding a little bit off a pall At this point, He's like Okay, well there are some buffalo out there, we can eat them. Yes, you might eat them, but. Are you going to sacrifice the entire flock to overfeed the group past spring? No. Yes, he did kill one creature and it did help the ship survive. So maybe we sacrificed one or two creatures to keep the ship a lot she to keep the ship alive and keep the crew alive, not sacrifice a population to save yourself. Yes, we sit there and we do eat cows, but we also help in the reproductive style of bringing more cows in, so there's a constant amount of cows in existence. We're no longer doing it where we're a society trying to put a put an animal to extinction just to keep just for our survival and food. We keep that going, so we're not just we're not killing him to extinction. We're just killing them and maintaining stocks so we can keep the society living.

46:19 So yes, I can understand where you may be sacrificed one or two but survive. Sacrificing dozens hundreds trying to make sure you can get home faster, I think was not was unethical. Yes, he thinks he's saving his crew, but he's sacrificing a society to save himself. So I agree with the minions on this one. He did make the wrong choice. Well, there you have it. See, sometimes I can pick a pretty good question. Yeah, I'm telling you, man, we could talk for an hour about this topic right now. It's it's so good.

47:00 Well, but we have to check out the force, as my shirt said right here, and we have to have and I'm excited to talk about about this bunch. And we're going to have Paul jump in and give us a recap like we like we always do before we start our conversation. So the Mike and George, Paul, well, the. Gym, I'd like to I'd very much like to do that, and I will. I will, But there's a little bit of a wrinkle has emerged before we do a recap of the episodes. So if with your indulgence, gentlemen, I'd like to acknowledge this wrinkle. Well, it's not really up to me. It's up to the person who's asking me to do this, if that's okay. But I have been recently visited by ISB Lieutenant dedram Miro, and dedram Miro has got a problem okay. She's very unhappy with how we left things last week, right, and she feels that before we go in and do a full on assessm or you know, summary of this next batch of episodes, she just wants to make sure that Uncle Jim is okay because she feels that Uncle Jim was, you know, kind of had a very bad initial reaction to the first batch of episodes last week. And so before we continue, Lieutenant Miro has asked me to find out how did you, generally speaking without going all the way deeper and having more time to talk later, Jim, how did you feel about this next batch of episodes? Did you were you

48:31 a little bit more? We're we're curious. Well, I'm waiting for you to do your recap, and I'm going to go first, I know, but we're we're. Kind of mixing that up. I got some feedback from other people in the ISD saying we were going to avoid uh, you know, last word on the subject syndrome. So just give us a hint. We want a movie trailer of your reactions. Are you feeling a little better? Well not so much? Yeah, no, no, I I want to share what I have to say for the review but I was. I've watched these these last three a couple of times, so that's a good thing. And I was, so I was so enamored that I actually watched the next three as well. So, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

49:16 Okay, good because dedram Merrow has a gun to my head and if I did not do this, I was going to get in a lot of trouble. This is not someone you. Want to want to do that. You know. She's very strict. Okay, all right, So I just want to get that out of the way, you know, because you know, this show is no good unless you Every now and then something happens that you didn't expect. So I think that's you know, that's why these things happened. So you never know who's going to pop by. So we're talking about tonight, guys, real quickly. We'll just kind of blow through here. We're talking about season two of and Orm, and we've already talked about episodes one, two, and three. So we're moving into the second arc, the second year, if you will, three b B Y, three years before the Battle of the avon right, and we're talking about the next the second arc of this season, which is episodes four, five, and six. Okay, just to make sure we get there, So a little time passes between these three episode arcs every single pass so a little time has passed. And we now see that Cassian and bis are they're like living together, right, and they're kind of between missions, and Bix is having a rough go. Okay, she's having a lot of nightmares. There are a lot of references between them to this mission that they were on that we never really see, but this happened during this interim period right where they had to kill an imperial soldier, right, And she's kind of having a hard time coping with that. It's not doing her any favors, and she's asking herself is she any better than her

50:50 torturer from season one, right, doctor Gorrist Right. And Cassian is also having a hard time struggling with how it is to be normal. Right. At one point, they go shopping just like you know, practically Travis Bickle, Right, he's just like, you're talking to me, what do you want? He's just like he's on edge, right, He's just completely there's a lot of friction between the two of them that we see. Things aren't necessarily going that well, and we really are spending a lot more time on the planet Gorman now, where Cyril has been promoted there and he's supposed to figure out a way to worm his way into the Gorman resistance. Right. He knows that he's being observed by the Gorman Front there to see how he's behaving, right, so he does a lot of these theatrical things to sort of prove himself, right, and the Gormans approach him and they invite him to a meeting.

51:37 And the Gormans, the Gorman Front are very much like the French Resistance during World War Two. Okay, they're very stylized like that in terms of the clothing that they wear, and at one point they're even speaking their language, which they do in a very French style, which is really really interesting. Right, And so Cyril's running back and he reports to Dedra and we learned that the city council members there in Gorman are are part of this Gorman Front resistance movement. Meanwhile, back over on Corussant, right, man Mathma is really getting a look at how dysfunctional the Senate is. This is all post wedding, right, and there are she confides to her husband and their limma. Right, there's more celebratory banquets being given by new senators than there is actual work being done in the Senate. Sounds familiar.

52:30 A lot of a lot of the things on and ors sound familiar in real life. Right, So she's kind of really getting the point where I think there's a tipping point coming for her. Right. Meanwhile, we go to the planet to car and old favorite from Rogue one. We really get a good look here at our buddy Sawguerera again, right, And Wilman is now with Sawgerera. Wilman, who we knew from the Farm Planet the first three episode of our he's with sar Guerrera and he's helping them learn how to harvest this incredibly highly volatile rocket fuel called rydonium. Right, And saws partisans are a bad batch of folks, right, They are just look like they're completely unhinged. Rydonium will do things to you if you breathe too much of it. Right, And I think when everybody saw Rogue one, right, and we saw Sagerera with his breathing mask, we just assumed he had like some problem that he was breathing oxygen to help him breathe better.

53:26 I don't think that's the case now. I think he's taking hits of Rye doonium that he's kind of hooked on it, right. I think you have to almost look at rogue one a completely different way now based on his behavior. But we'll talk more about that in a subsequent episode. In just a couple of minutes. Meanwhile, amongst the ISB, their undercover agent Lannie Is Lannie Young is building trust with a Deadro's former assistant, right, And he tells Luthen right when he goes back and reports to Luthan Rail because this is this guy who's like in the ISB, but he's also like undercover for the rebels, right, And he tells Luthen that Dedra has been tasked with taking over Gorman right again this planet, And so Luthen asked Cassian to go there, and he leaves Bix by herself in her apartment, where she starts resorting to self medication if you will, to sort of deal with the PTSD of everything she's been going through. So that, my friends, is the first of these three episodes ever been to Gorman.

54:29 Should I keep going? Go to the next two? Do it all? Right. Episode two is called I Have Friends Everywhere, right, and things are starting to get crazy. While Cassian is out on Gorman, Luthen checks in on Bis right to see what she's up to. He was originally thinking about giving her a mission, but he's checking in while Cassian's away, and he's not happy to see her, you know, kind of blitzed out on drugs, watching endless episodes of Good Morning Gorizon, right, which is pretty hilarious the way it's depicted, right, but realistic, right, I mean it's like the Fox News of Corroussant essentially. So back on Gorman, Cyril stages this dramatic confrontation with the ISB for the benefit of all the potential Gorman front rebels who might be watching him, right, and then they convince Cyril to give them the delivery schedule of all the Imperial supply vehicles to confirm that what's being built opposite the plaza is in fact an armory, right, which is what they're afraid of. Because there's a lot of references to what we've heard about outside of the movies and shows, but in the expanded universe, the original Gorman massacre, okay, which we've not seen. This is before this time. There was a Gorman massacre years ago where Grandma Tarkin landed. His imperial statists were on a whole plaza full of you know, civilians killing everybody. Right, So that's what that memorial is in the plaza, uh is

56:01 there to commemorate that. And the idea that their worst fears is that the the Empire would be building an armory. There is looking in the face of the it's like a slap in the face, right, to build it right in the face. Of a shadow, Right, it'll put a shadow over the. Momential, literal and figurative. Right. So it's so they're they're very unhappy. And you know, Cyril is all excited to be doing all the spycraft with his girlfriend, right deadra Right, Yeah, I know, I know there is no Cyril action figure yet, So okay, you're gonna have to talk to you know, Steve Evans at Hasbro. But I love that there's a dedro one though. That's so cool. I was so happy and they just nailed her. Right, she's just you know, just looks passed. She's even got the tight bun on the back of her head. She's it's a really great, great figure. I was happy, so Cassie and gets this false identity all set when he visits Gorman, right, because Gorman is like the Milan of the Galactic Empire. Right, It's where fashion is done, you know, and everything like that. So he gets himself all dandied up as like this fashion designer, this alternative, you know, non threatening persona to infiltrate Gorman and find out what's going on there. And he has a short moment with the Bellhop at his hotel where the bell Hop talks about his father saving him from that original Gorman massacre that happened back in the day from mof Target, right.

57:25 And it's really interesting because at this point in his character, our Cassian is really reluctant to take action. Right. He's been very protective of Bicks. I think he's still reeling from the Feriks massacre at the end of season one, and he's playing it safe in everything he does. Right, He's like, you know, he wants to make sure Bicks doesn't get in harm's way. He's really constantly worried we better not do this, or something bad is going to happen. Right, and this starts you see this here when he first meets with the Gorman Front, right, our French Revolution, French Resistance vote, Right, he's chastising them for being too trusting. Right, He's discouraging Carol Rylands and his daughter Enza, who are you know, the main spearhead of the Gorman Front. He's discouraging them.

58:12 Right. They don't think that doing nothing though, is really an option, as I can kind of relate to, right, But you know, Cassie's basically saying, you know it's too risky, you're too trusting. But you know, anything you do, as much as you want to do anything, is playing into the Empire's hands. And he's basically warning them they're looking to set you up, which they are. Right. Meanwhile, back at ISB, Cyril gets an enthusiastic good job from major party Gas. Right, it's just hilarious. Cyril's all excited, goes to Dedro and he's like, this is the greatest day of my life. Right, He's actually being you know, acknowledged and appreciated for doing something, even if it is nefarious deeds for the Empire.

58:54 Right. So back with Sagerera, things again a little crazy over there, right, Wilman is tasked with training one of sas partisans. Right, a guy named Pluti on how to steal ridonium, right, this high test bocket fuel. Right, and Pluti is just a little last too many questions right there, And initially it sounds like Saw might you know, when he gets what he needs, kill Wilman, But Pluti just asked one question too many, and so shockingly, Saw kills him instead, and Wilman ends up having to perform the ridonium heist. Right. And here is this amazing, amazing performance that we see here, right, it's just phenomenal because we really see from Saguerera he reveals just how crazy the ridonium gas has made him. Right, He even refers to the gas as his sister. He calls the gas his sister. And I don't know if any of y'all have watched the Clone Wars episodes, right, that animated series, which is wonderful, But we learn about U Saw's early days, right, and his sister, his actual sister named Stela, died during the Clone Wars. Right. She was like his moral compass and he's never recovered from losing her. And so now he's all high on rhydonium gas.

1:00:17 And he even thinks that the Gas is like his sister. Right, he admits to being crazy, basically saying that revolution is not for the same right because kind of akin to what we've heard previously from Luth and rail Right, he knows that he's going to be dead before the Empire is defeated, and so his headspace is not in a good place at all. But he's encouraging Wilman to do the same thing. Breathe the Gas, join the Revolution, be like me. I mean, it's like it's manic and it's crazy and it's zelotry, and it shows how infectious that stuff is. Fascinating scene. But man, Forrest is just on fire there. I mean, I just love what he does.

1:01:06 Did you guys, like, well you we'll all say, but I mean one of the best scenes so far. Would you say? Yeah? I mean I didn't even know how to feel about him. I mean, we'll talk more about this, but like, yeah, it was so good that I was just kind of like, oh, I love him, Oh I hate him? God? Why is he such a dick? God? Why is he so awesome? All at the same time. Everybody on this show this season, right fix cassieon Wilmon saw. Everybody has got so much trauma in their background, right that they're recovering from. People are just trying to get on and do something right. But it's just like, but a real big theme within this is, you know, I think, when have you had enough? And when do you have to start blowing shit up right before it kills you? Right, It's like you almost have to start committing these acts going mad from not committing it. So it's a fascinating you know, when is too much and too much a dilemma that they find themselves in. So that's how that second end episode ends, is with this craziness with roydonium Gas, the Sagerera. Okay, come into the big number three here, moving to the and again that episode, the second one was called I Have Friends Everywhere, right, and we're talking about spies and folks in the underground and resistance. So let's move on to the third of these three episodes, Wash a festive evening and things get nuts. Luthen meets

1:02:37 up with Cassian, right, and Cassian has been reluctant for Gorman to do anything risky at all. He's been advising them against doing things right, but Luthen's okay, with it, and if something really bad happens to Gorman, he's probably alright with that sacrifice because the bad things that happened last season on Farahpherix is way on the boonies, right. It's like, no one really cares if bad things happen to Feryx, right because it's way out in the you know, in the east Jesus right, no one's ever heard of it, right, So it didn't make much of an impact. But if something really bad happened on Gorman, you know, the fashion capital of the Republic, right of the Empire, right, that would really get people's attention. Right, So he's almost okay that if really something bad happens with Gorman getting crushed, because that planet is so prominent that they get hurt, those larger outside systems are going to actually take notice of the Empire's brutality. That is an ethical conundrum, I'm sure, right, But he's willing to make these really brutal decisions for the big picture win. So it's pretty crazy. So characters we haven't seen for a while since season one, Vell and Sinta. They are other rebellions who work a lot with Cassian. So they are sent to work with Gorman together because cass Scene is going to go back and look after Bicks for a while, right, And when he does, Kathine really gets in Luthern's face about checking it on

1:04:07 Bis behind his back, and there's a big confrontation that goes on there. We get a very interesting scene back at ISB where a major part of Gas is explaining that doctor Gorst's torture methods are going to be expanded. He's going to franchise Doctor Gorst like a McDonald's, right, and the torture is going to be happening everywhere. And there's this wonderful scene where one of the you know, the younger Imperials, is all excited, Oh so this this job is it's an honor. It's just it's one of the best lines of the season. It's like it's an assignment. Calibrate your enthusiasm. I mean, that's a good line.

1:04:49 He's great. I love that. Calibrate your enthusiast. I want a T shirt. It's like bad. I feel like I need a T shirt that has that. I would wear it every day. So we're seeing that Vell and Sinta, who are very much a couple, right, Let's let's not hide that, right, they are really gonna have to be involved with everything going on here with the Gorman front there and all of those folks and their resistance. Right, And they're talking about trying to make their relationship more of a priority, while at the same time realizing that Luthen sees they're worth more to him separately than together. And that's never a line like, that's never good news, right, So that's that's a bummer. Then things get crazy. Luthen's assistant Claya, who helps him run the gallery, right, his cover identity, right, Sculdon, who it's hard to keep track of all these folks, I realize, right, I'm stopping names like crazy. But you know, Sculden's the one who is there, like the billionaire who mana. Mathma had to do the arranged marriage with Scolden's son, right, who I don't think has anything, is not interested in marriage.

1:05:59 But Skulden's like this big art patron, right, and he's totally filthy, rich and modern. Mathma had to marry her daughter off into that family. But Sculdon has now discovered that somehow there's a fake in his art collection. Right, How did he find out? Because the rebels, including Clea, put a listening device in one of his art objects in his collection, so they bugged his art collection to learn more about him. Right. So now they're really into trouble because Scolden's going to basically have all of his shit examined right to see if there's other frauds in there, and if he does, they're going to find that bug that they planted. So they got to get that bug out of one of those pieces during the middle of Scolden's big art show full of imperial dignitaries. So it's a little tense thing. So they have no other option but to try to get the clay has to go in there and remove the bug from this one piece of art in plain sight. Yikes. A little bit of a change here in terms of the lay of the land in the Galactic Senate, right, because we have some casting changes here from what we've seen previously in other Star Wars prequels, right, and other aspects of the show.

1:07:13 In the past, Bail Organa, Senator Laya Organa's father was always played by Jimmy Smiths, but that's had a situation had to recast the role, right because Jimmy Smith is doing like a Dexter reboot and he's he's just they couldn't work out the scheduling as much as they want to, so they cast Benjamin Bratt now to replace him as bail Organa. And I think they've handled it just fine. I think it's just one of those things that happens, right. Creative stuff is difficult. Actors have lots of jobs scheduling as well, and I think they made a great choice. And I think Benjamin Bratt is now bail Organa, so we'll get used to him in this role for a bit so and whether or that will be forever, who knows.

1:07:54 But he's doing a really good job and I don't think it's too distracting at all. As this episode wraps up, okay, we're basically cutting back and forth between two big major climaxes that are happening here. We've got the art show party with mon Mathma, Luthan, Claia, Krenick, and Young right. All during this art show party, okay, and well that's going on. Vell and Sinta are on this big heist with the Gorman front. Right. They're all being watched the whole time by Cyril and the ISB while they're doing this heist, and I love during the art show party, right, there's this great scene with mon Mathma and director Krenick just trading these politically charged barbs with each other. It's awesome, right, and she's just basically trying to do everything she can to just go to him and keeping distractive while Clay is over there basically making her hand bleed trying to get the listening device out of this piece of art that it's inn't it. So it's a really tense, very entertaining scene.

1:08:57 And then, of course during the heist, because it's, you know, a heist on an imperial occupied planet, nothing goes right, right. Two of the Gorman Front partisans, Drina and Sam, they both do things they weren't supposed to do, right. Drina gets distracted helping an old lady cross the street, and Sam brings a blaster along even when he was told specifically not to do it by Velncenta. Right, he brings a blaster along anyway, So they're both doing these things they're not supposed to do. One of the members of the city council, guy named Lauzine, wanders into the heist, not knowing what's going on, and there's a big skirmish, weapons are fired that should never have been there, and Sinta is killed right tragically, and it's another meaningless death like Brassos from the first arc right at the end of Arc one. It's the same kind of thing. The whole point I think that's being made here is that there's so much chaos going on that it just he used too much for anyone to keep track of. You're hearing that even amongst the imperials. They say that in the ISB. The same thing is happening within the chaos of the early that band of two factions of rebels kind of going out each other. We saw in the first three episodes. There's just too much chaos. No one in is control. The alliance needs to form. They need a leader, right, they don't know it yet, but they need somebody like mon Moth not to step up and become a leader because there's all this fragmentation of chaos happenings.

1:10:32 Luthen's you know, a wetworks guy. You know, he's not an inspirational leader in the same way, So it's a there's a lot of necessity for that. So all these tragedies keep happening, and then the episode ends in a really cool way, I think, with Bix's torturer, doctor Gorris, suddenly realizing that he's being ambushed in his torture facility by Bix herself. And this is great cathartic moment for her, right because she ends up putting one of his own torture devices on him, you know, gagging him, and then blowing up the building that he's in. Right, So it's by bye bye isb gorst franchise torture opportunities, And it's just very satisfying and cathartic as she blows that building up. Boom.

1:11:18 That wraps up the four, five and six episodes for us in terms of summaries. Ever been to Gorman? I have friends everywhere, and what a festive evening. That's a lot of talking from me. So how about we spind the dial I want to go first here? You want to go first? Want to go first? Excellent? I want to go first first, Uncle Jim. All right. Last week I was disappointed. Uncle Jim. I appreciate that I found. I appreciate your service. I found the pacing. I didn't like it. This week episode four, I was like, oh no, oh, no, here we go again. But by the end of episode six phenomenal.

1:12:01 I really really enjoyed it, and I think it's definitely going in the right direction, so much so that I've already watched the next three episodes, which I'm not going to talk about right now. But I enjoyed it. I thought it definitely turned the corner for me. Particularly we saw Sagarera and his crazed rebellion flying X wings. How cool was that? In fact, one of the X wings that we see crack, Because I went back and watched Rogue one afterwards, one of the X wings that we see crashed in the street in Rogue one is one of Sagrera's X wings with the black markings on it, So I noticed that right away. I thought that was cool. Seeing Krenick again exchanging bars with man Mathma, I thought was awesome. The fact, I also think, correct me if I'm wrong here, but the basis Sagarera was using looked exactly like the base that we see the Rebels using in Star Wars the movie. Was that forse Awakens? Yes?

1:13:02 Is that not the It looked just like it to me? It is, Yeah, that ends up being it's the car. I thought that comes to subsequent rebel bass. That was cool mentioning grahamav Tarkin crushing the people. I thought was you know, another tie in to Star Wars. Yeah, I mean I enjoyed it. I completely enjoyed it, particularly the last two episodes of the three. And to me, maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Maybe my truck spirts here can clear this up for me. But the way I'm starting to look at at this now is that each three blocks of episodes are like a little mini movie in an unto themselves and which is a lot different than what we're used to watching. You know, we're used to watching episodes that that that go in chronological order or a long story arc like on Discovery or Picard, But in and Or they're doing something different.

1:13:56 We have these three episode blocks that together tell a story and then they're there is a time gap between the next block, and then we move on to the next block, and each block of episodes tells one part of a bigger story. Is that is that? Am I looking at it that the right way here? Yeah? I think. So You've got four arcs of three episodes each and there's really separated by a year, so I think they're like little miniature movies almost really, and you get four of them. Yeah, they're a little mini movies. So looking at it that way, Yeah, I really enjoyed this batch. I really did. I didn't feel as bad about it as I did about the three. I enjoyed it, and I highly recommend it. Seeing Sagarera and how we went crazy sniffing the gas, you know, the rebel alliance taking form here, the heist of the Imperial weapons, absolutely awesome. I highly recommend it.

1:14:44 I loved it. Nice, We're getting him to come around friends, very cool, very cool, excellent. Uh, Eric, well they're. You know, It's so funny because I feel like, given the task of reviewing three episodes at a time, I'm almost overwhelmed because I kind of want to look at it from a thirty thousand foot view and talk about the general things that are happening, But then there's so many specific things that are happening that I'm really really interested in. So so here's what I'll say. I can't I'm not the guy who's going to keep really really good track of the cannon, so I'm not necessarily going to recognize when something happens that happened in Rogue one or that kind of stuff. The good news is that I feel like the way that they're shooting this and the way that they're writing this, it appeals to people on multiple levels. So if you are the person who's keeping track of that stuff on a minute level, you're going to notice that Saws X wing is the X wing that's crashed in Rogue one, or you're going to notice all these finer points. I'm just like, ooh, Saw's got some x w that's kind of cool. I'm gonna ask if my tre experts a bunch of questions about X wings, like I don't. I don't really know where the X wings came from. And I learned actually a lot this week in our private chat on X wings being manufactured by people who were, you know, friendly to

1:16:19 the rebellion and that kind of stuff. So you should look it up if you're if you're interested, I will say also that, uh, you know, one of the things that's most fascinating about me about this show is that we still and I said this last week, we still know what's going to happen in the end, Like we know what the outcome of all of this stuff is, it doesn't matter. I'm still finding this completely riveting. Like I think the writing of this show is just so good, and I love the dance between the kind of like greater concepts that are going on between the Empire and the budding rebellion here and the specific small character interactions that are happening that then lead to bigger things. I can't think of another show except maybe maybe the newer Battlestar Galactica show that sort of played with that kind of macro and micro view at the same time, and I'll say that that's probably one of my favorite parts of and Or right now. I also feel like this show is literally becoming a template on how to form a rebellion against anything.

1:17:37 Which given that this was shot a little while. Ago, and it just feels very very contemporary right now and very current with some of the stuff that's going on, particularly in this country right now. I'm just like, Wow, I absorb stuff when it's particularly relevant to what is going on in my life at the moment, and I feel like I am really super absorbing this show right now because I'm feeling what some of these rebels are feeling. I'm feeling the the overarching dominance of this thing that's kind of out there and that wants to take what's mine or what's ours and twist it in different ways and use it for its own purposes. So I don't know, I just I'm I'm completely enamored with the writing right now, and I feel like it's a confluence of just really good writing and the time in.

1:18:39 Which this is made. I just, I don't know. It's hard for me to say more about that. I just really dig that. I still think that Luthan is probably one of my favorite characters. He he is this He's the only person in the show who is just brutally invested in the rebellion and he just doesn't care who gets lit on fire along the way. And I I think that idea of that you have to sacrifice so much to make what you know morally needs to happen happen is kind of refreshing in some ways. It's like it's brutal and it's scary, but it's also he's the only character who's kind of got the like unwavering moral compass, not relative to personal relationships, not relative to micro things that are happening here and there. He's just the one who has the vision that's kind of going forward and knowing what we know about Manmatha becoming the kind of leader of the rebellion, I just feel like we know at this point that Luthen's got to die, right at some point, this guy has to die. He has to have a big sacrifice that happens. I don't know what block of episodes it's going to happen in,

1:20:11 but I'm like ninety nine percent sure that we're gonna lose Luthen. And I'm gonna end my talk here with my my Luthen theory that I know I've chatted a little bit with Paul about. I haven't specifically talked about what the theory is, but I know we both have theories and I want to just like explore those. Oh you want to hear it now, that'd be great. I mean, so. When mon Mathmas as many Bothins died as you bother in. Well, I'm not sure what a botherin is, but but I like so, so Paul, I, do you do you want to kind of talk about what your theory is with Luthen right now? Or or do you want me to go first or whatever. I feel like we're probably we haven't really talked about this guy, so this is kind of like we're both getting out onto the tip of the diving board and just sort of a little bit.

1:21:05 We are we are a little bit right. Let me see if I can find one thing here, because I have a I wrote something about this the other day, but I doubt very much as I can find it, you know, when I'm talking about Edie, you know what I mean? Yeah, and all the time when Edie and Cyril and I gotta be careful when I talk about because we're not talking about this week's current. I have seen two of the three started. So absolutely awesome by the way. I don't know if my theory, you know. But okay, whenever, like you have to go back to season one for this and a little bit of season two, right, but I'll be real quick, I promise. But but whenever before Edie basically you know, gets her the wind knocked out of by dead right. One of the things she would always say to uh Cyril is, oh, your uncle Harlow will do this. Oh, your uncle uncle Harlow will do that.

1:22:08 He's always giving advice. Uncle Harlow, uncle Harlow, right, and then there's that brief mention of him when dedra Uh is getting you know, in her face, right, he goes, I've looked up your uncle Harlow and he's just a he's a he's a he's like a criminal. Right. Basically my theory is that Luther and his uncle Harlow. Yeah, and that like the uncle that you know, Cyril's you know, been always told to go into. Is that what you were thinking? That is exactly what I was seeing it. It's kind of funny because I swear to god, I googled this and nobody else was talking about it when I googled. But yeah, that's so funny that that you have the same thing.

1:22:49 I love it. I love it because it's like you keep hearing about this character very mysteriously, right, but a criminal and who else is sort of you know flinching. Yeah, I love. I love Luthan. That's a character I mean, manologue can give. At the end of season one. I mean, that was that was that was on point, and he gives kind of a like similar one this time around a little bit when he and Cassian are kind of having that interaction and he's talking about the nature of sacrifice and like, you know that. The thing that I love about Cassian is that like this guy leads with his heart and he he's the one who like knows the thing that has to happen. And he's like, I'm gonna put all of myself into this, not not willie nilly, but like his personal relationships matter more to him than the ideals of the rebellion. And I feel like that's where I would be, like it would be hard for me to And and one of the amazing things that happens in one of these episodes is is luth And is finally like, you know what, I don't think this is the guy we need. I think we need to actually move on. And and Vell is kind of like the next in line of how he's you know, trying.

1:24:14 To because whatever whatever he wants, whatever he wants Cassian to be, he hasn't become that yet. He's recognizing that Cassian doesn't have that kind of mindset because Cassian's personal dialogue resides in his in his love for bicks and and and I think that that's one of the really cool things about this show because you kind of get this. I think more than any other Star Wars that I've seen, except maybe like some of the stuff between like Anakin and Padme kind of touches on this just a little bit, but it doesn't really develop it in the same way in that there's an ideal that has to be achieved and then there's like the personal relationship, and those two things don't always necessarily align with one another, and to me, this show is exploring those to the nth degree, and I just I just really like it. It's one of the reasons that I really love the Cassian character because I feel like if I were in this universe, he would be the guy that I would be.

1:25:19 And I kind of also I sometimes wonder also with Luthen, right, because Luthen's fascinating to me, right, because I often wonder if, like you know, he had that one like weapon, like a knife type weapon that was just it was kind of war like a bit of a lightsaber in season one, and I wonder if there's some like if Luthen's like maybe a fallen Jedi at some point, because the Jedi, like if you watch like the prequels, right, what do they always say? What are the Masters always tell This is the problem that Anakin got into. Right, don't form attachments. Attachments are bad, right, Like, don't do that, right, You're not supposed to have those feelings. Right. But and so here we have lou And basically discouraging attachments wherever he can. Right, he's discouraging uh Bis, you know, he's discouraging Cassi and from you know, Bix's a liability basically saying he's discouraging the relationship between Valencinta. Right, He's basically he sees they're more valuable apart than together. Right. But meanwhile, right at the end of the one episode, he's merely walking off with Claya, you know, practically hand in hand. Right. It's like he gets to be close to the people, but other people don't. So he's like kind of this you know, hypocritical guy in some ways. So it's fascinating stuff.

1:26:41 Absolutely, And there have been times when I've wondered if he like, I will admit that there's a part of me that was like, is he really a clone or something? Because you got the two different hairstyles going on, You've got him showing up in different places. You I feel like his rebel subterfuge self and his you know, art gallery person are I mean, they're similar obviously in a lot of ways. They're they're playing two sides of the same coin. But I've almost been like, kind of, can he literally do all this stuff as one person? Or are there actually too? I don't really think that there are too, But like there was a part of me at one point that was like, is luth And a clone.

1:27:27 Surely one person? I don't think But yeah, I don't think so either. I think he's just he's a very busy, disturbed guy. I mean, he's flying everywhere in that amazing starship of his right, He's just you know, zipping around and doing whatever. And so I don't know that he's not, but I think he's, you know, he's it's going to be really interesting when Luthen bows out, you know, I think it is what I do. You agree that he's going to die at some point? I think we're you know, it's it seems like this is a show about sacrifice, right, and and and he's what is his line from I mean it's almost like telegraphing in away from from the monologue and yeah, where he says basically he goes, I can't remember the exact thing he says, but it goes, I burn my you know, burn my candle for sunsets, for sunrise I will never see, right, And basically he's talking about what I'm doing right now is for a future I won't live to see, right.

1:28:27 I mean, I think he and Saw both know that that what's necessary is to get it done, because you have to be willing to just you know, take it, you know, to sacrifice yourself. I think that's something like that will happen, but I'm not sure how because we don't see any reference of him in Rogue one, right, But he could also just be somebody who just you know, disappears, but I don't see that, So I think he's probably going to be you know, it'll be fascinating to see what happens, though I'm not gonna say anything else because we can't talk about this next batch of episodes. Yeah, well, so we're really really really I feel like we got to even though he's not seen him. I know Charles has deliberately not been watching these episodes because he just doesn't have time. But you do want to weigh in on anything that sounds intriguing Charles definitely.

1:29:21 It sounds like a very calm, very wound up story, and there sounds like a lot of interesting details coming up that's going to tie in to Rogue one, which I think should be interesting. But definitely I'm looking for And when I do get to see. It, Yeah, it's it's a lot going on. It's one of those shows you almost want to watch. People have different styles, right, But I almost find sometimes if I go back and watch it again, if I watch it with the subtitles on, I almost get more out of it. Sometimes title are required for this right now, because there's so many accents going on. I can't understand a damn thing sauce as to tell you the truth, unless I have the titles on.

1:30:09 I've got one of those soundbars that pushes up the dialogue track right, so it's like a little easier to hear it, which is really really fun. But just this what they're saying is really complex, and sometimes they're just talking in like you know, you know, like like if he and I were at the pub, Eric and I was just like, do we need to get some cheese? No, We're not going to have cheese, ton I. We're just having bread, you know, I mean those kind of things, right, You're like, what are they really saying, right, because they can't talk about the thing that they're really doing, right because they would be killed. So it's like like Spielberg's Munich, right, very similar to that. Right, there's very hardcore, realistic spy talk.

1:30:50 It's great. So well, David David gets to bring up the caboose on this one here, so yeah. So well, I enjoyed this very well much. And uh, for those who don't know what a botin is, I got a picture here that I just found and this is what they look like. So those are the guys who apparently stole the death Doll plans and sacrificed themselves as well. So I'm wondering if we're gonna be seeing them later on in the last few of the uh coming episode that Android is gonna be doing. But yeah, so I myself, I believe that continuity, or in this case, canon, is very important for any kind of series. If without canon, they've got so many open doors that can get really confusion really quick. So to me, canon, when I watched it, I watched it for the entertainment of knowing that, Okay, this is gonna happen. This is what's gonna take place now.

1:31:54 And as far as you guys were talking about Lutheran, was she gonna die or is she gonna, you know, disappear whatnot. I honestly think he's probably going to be kidnapped by the Empire. He's probably going to get thrown in prision. Probably he might satifice himself, and that's very likely to be a case. But yeah, I think he's gonna just probably disappear into an imperial prison, probably because they're going to capture him. And then now my Mathma is going to have to take the way to the leader rebellion. So technically I think this show, even though I haven't seen the other three yet, so I'm very curious of what's going to happen in the next year to marry Band of Outlaws here, But honestly I think that knowing what happened with Kashian on World one, I mean, heck, they might even bring in well, actually they can't bring in the woman on Rogue one. I can't remember her name, but yeah, never mind, they met. Yeah, I don't think they're gonna bring her in because they met in Rogue one.

1:33:07 So technically k two s O. I think his name is. I've seen a trailer and I know that there is going to be them him in there. So technically, yes, it would be fun to see a lot of the returning in this case, legendary characters come back together and stuff. But I'm really looking forward to see what's going to happen and I can't wait to talk about it next week. So yeah, I'm really enjoying it. It's just, uh, it's this episode four, five and six definitely got a lot more intense. In that whole scene where she was trying to get that the listening device out of that art piece, I was literally holding my breath. I would like my breathing.

1:33:54 So yeah, it was. It was intense. I enjoyed it. I like it. And are we doing numbers at all or. Sure? Sure, go ahead, Okay, I would give that thumbed up to a nine point five. I enjoyed it more than last week. Yeah, Eric, Eric had had a couple of things he wanted to add to that. I just wanted to make sure we heard from David first. Uh. Yeah, Well, the only things that I was going to close with were that I think when they introduced the serial character I was a little unclear on whether or not he was going to be full on Empire or he was actually going to be able to be one of those people who has turned to the rebellion. And I think we're starting to see that he's definitely aligning himself with the Empire right now. However, to me, there there's still a little bit of doubt in his character.

1:34:58 And although he full in with Dedra and he's full in with Patrick Gaz and Partrigaz and all those people, I feel like there's still a chance for him to actually play a role that is rebellion focused. So I'm interested to see if that manifests. The only other thing I wanted to see was or say, was that I really appreciated in one of these episodes. It might have been the last one, I can't remember which one, where it feels like Monmotha finally kind of gives up on the Senate, like she's been trying so hard to turn people to her way of thinking to get votes for different things, and you kind of see her finally get disgusted with it and sort of give up on it.

1:35:45 And I really appreciated that because it felt like a very human moment to me, where she knows what needs to happen and she feels like she's put in the time to make it happen, and yet it hasn't manifest. So that to me was like the biggest step that we've seen for her forward becoming the leader of the rebellion. And yeah, I mean, I'll give this block episodes and nine, I feel like they were super duper solid. The writing, I think is some of the best writing that I've seen on television, and I'll put that with the first block episodes that we saw too. I just in general, the concepts that are being developed and the fact that they're in this you know, expanded universe, I think is really interesting. But moreover, you could watch this show and not know a darn thing about Star Wars and still completely enjoy it, and that to me is kind of what takes it over the top.

1:36:44 Well, I just wanted to jump back in and say, I think one of the reasons why I enjoyed these last three blocks and why the next three blocks were so incredibly mind boggling, which we're not going to talk about till next week, is because the characters that were meeting and the situation that we're seeing are closer to Star Wars. The first three episodes, really I could have passed them completely, wouldn't have mattered. But these three, you know, we're starting to see things happening where it's feeling more and more like the Star Wars that I grew up with, like is on my shirt in nineteen seventy seven, and I really like that. I'm really digging that. So I'm not as in love with it as you guys to go with a nine or ten, but definitely a seven point eight for sure. And next week's are gonna is gonna be even better, which we'll talk about then. But I'm gonna go with a seven point eight for sure.

1:37:39 And unless Paul wants to jump in and give us his number. It's tough because, like you, you've got three different episodes, right, I mean, yeah, I mean I've been an. All a giant movie, all one movie. Yeah, I would basically put this. I would say all of it so far from me, has been at the very least of nine. I think some of the episodes have stronger than others, right, But just in general, I mean I kind of would almost prefer to really hold off until we've seen the whole thing, right, because it's in the middle of it, and I'm just not a hung up on the whole number rating thing anyway. It's just my jam that I think it's amazing. I think it's just adult literate, you know, it's just the rating.

1:38:26 It's just really dark and it's about something. I just think it's really amazing and necessary. I think it's just it's it's I don't have the same need to connect it to you know. I just think it's different than the other kinds of style. I'm not looking to align it with the same tone from you know, the original trilogy. It's just that just doesn't matter to me. It's just like, to me, it represents hope that like, okay, in this century we find ourselves in now, Like it's I don't want to see that we're repeating ourselves at infinitum. I want to see that this folks are willing to push the envelope, push the boundaries, and to go darker and tell stories that are more you know, locked in and necessary for where we seem to be heading as a society, right And to me, that's the real heroism going on.

1:39:25 So I'm not looking to see it line up. I mean, we've already had a lot of them stuff in the end of Rogue one. Right, in terms of lining up with the original affility, I want to I want to see them go and perfectly willing to have them go in other direction. I don't need to be reminded of what those other things are they stand upont This is something that's new and unique, so I think it should just be appreciated on. Its own, all right, So, Charles, what's the overall score from the truck Spurts four, five and six. Well, when we round now members around, we start off with about almost an eight last week, and we are in eight point eight rounding tw a nine this week, so we're up at least a good tense of a point.

1:40:19 Excellent excellent news. All right, guys. Well, that wraps up our discussion on and Or Part two episodes four, five and six. Wait till next week, seven, eight, and nine. Can't wait? All right, guys, It's time for our Star Trek birthdays. That was not a clemon. Song, all right, guys. We always start out our Star Trek birthdays by remembering those members of our Star Trek family who are, sadly enough no longer with us, and for that we turned.

1:41:02 To Eric Jim. I'm going to abbreviate my remembrances a little bit this week because we have ten of them and I just want to make sure that we acknowledge these people and give a little bit of background information about them. So our first remembrance this week is for Donald James Marshall, better known simply as Don Marshall, the actor who played Lieutenant Boma in the TOS first season episode The Galileo Seven. He's also probably best known for playing Dan Erickson on the Irwin Allen produced television series Land of the Giants from nineteen sixty eight through nineteen seventy, and in addition to acting, Marshall provided consultation regarding his work and racial issues, and as a result, was once given an award for outstanding achievement in his field as a Black achiever in the United States. So Donald James Marshall really special actor.

1:41:52 You should go look him up on IMDb. Lots of cool stuff in his thing. We lost him back in twenty sixteen at the age of eighty years old. Happy Birthday commercial. Happy Birthday. As well to Theodore Meir Bickel, the actor who portrayed Sergei Roshenko in the Next Generation four season episode Family. I think you probably recognize him. He was a versatile character actor born in Vienna, Austria. He was also a master of languages, dialects, and accents, and often played ethnic roles such as German officers and even a Serbian king at one point. In fact, at one point he actually portrayed President Richard Nixon's Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. Wait, not his secretary of State, but you don't understand what I mean. The UK Secretary of State in the ninety eighty nine Watergate movie The Final Days. Theodore miir Bickel a really special actor. He lived to be the ripe old age of ninety one years old. We lost him back in twenty fifteen. Happy Birthday, Theodore bikel Happy Birthday.

1:42:52 As well to Lance go Legault. He was the actor who appeared as Katimak in the Next Generation second season episode The Emissary. He's probably best known for his reoccurring role as Colonel Decker in the television series The A Team. I probably saw every single episode of that show when I was It was just the right time and place. I think it was like a team and Airwolf. For like back to back or something. I don't know. I watched all sorts of different things. He did a lot of acting along the way, lots of guest appearances and stuff. And he also did voice work for cartoons and video games, and was the narrator of the tour audio tape for Elvis Presley's Graceland Mansion and Museum in Memphis, Tennessee. Yeah, he was actually a close friend of Elvis Presley.

1:43:38 Two. You should look that up. Happy birthday to Lance Galald Legault. Happy birthday as well to Marry Carver. The actress who appeared as Nadette and Bernadette Fuller in the Next in the Enterprise for season episode Tara Nova. She's probably best known for playing Cecilia Simon, the mother to the title stars of the CB television series Simon and Simon, which I also saw pretty much every episode of from nineteen eighty one to nineteen eighty nine. And in addition to being a much sought over actor, she taught within the theater department of the University of Southern California and received the nineteen eighty six Drama Logue Award for Outstanding performance for the stage play A Christmas Memory.

1:44:23 Mary Carver lost at the ripe old age of eighty nine years old back in twenty thirteen. Happy Birthday to her, Happy Birthday as well to gen Bell, one of the two actresses who played Dancy Crater in the TOS first season episode The Man Trap. Born in Chicago but grew up in California, she was best known, probably for her co starring role as vice principal Jean Pagano in the first season of the high school drama series Mister Novak. Unfortunately, we lost her to breast cancer all the way back in nineteen ninety six at the young age of sixty seven years old. Jean bal Happy Birthday, Ta, Happy Birthday, as well to Barry Rousseau, also known as John Duke Rousseau or sometimes just John Duke. He was the actor who appeared twice on the original series, first playing Lieutenant Commander Giaddo in the first season episode The Devil in the Dark, and then went on to play Commodore Bob Wesley in the second season episode The Ultimate Computer. The majority of Russeau's additional work in his career were guest appearances on other television shows. All the things from the seventies and eighties that you can think of. He also appeared in the nineteen seventy two feature film The Man.

1:45:37 Barry Rousseau Lost back in twenty three at the age of seventy eight years old. Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday as well to John Neville, the extremely accomplished British actor who appeared as Isaac Newton in the Next Generation six season episode Dissent, perhaps best known for playing two roles, the title role in Terry Gilliam's real comic fantasy The Adventures of Baron Munchausen and for his reoccurring role as the well manicured man on the Fox Network's popular science fiction television series The X Files. He did so much stuff, you guys. You gotta look up zion dB. There's just like so much stuff. A lot of it is theater based.

1:46:20 He was a classically trained British actor. He also had reoccurring roles on several Canadian television series as he spent a lot of his life in Canada and actually won some Canadian television awards along the way too. So Happy Birthday to a very very cool and accomplished actor, John Neville Lost back in twenty eleven at the age of eighty six years old. Happy birthday as well to Bill Quinn. Billy Quinn was the actor who appeared as David McCoy in Star Trek five, Jim's Favorite movie. Quinn is best known for his roles on four television series as Sweeney the Bartender on The Rifleman, as Doctor Milnitz on The Odd Couple, as Doctor Van Rustlinar on All in the Family and its spinoff series Archie Bunker's Place, and he appeared in nineteen sixty two's Advice and Consent. He was also in some Alfred Hitchcock movies along the way. Unfortunately, Star Trek five would be his final performance as an actor.

1:47:19 We lost him back in nineteen ninety four at the age of eighty one years old. Happy birthday to Bill Quinn. Happy birthday as well to John Lormer, a character actor who made three appearances on Star Trek the original series. He played Theodor Haskins in The Cage and the Menagerie Part one. He played Tamar in Return of the Arkans, and he played an old man in for the World as Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky. Perhaps one of the best titled episodes of all times. You'll note that his roles in both of those tos episodes were murdered by tyrannical computers that oversaw their societies for trying to reveal keel Key information to Captain Kirksbach and doctor McCoy.

1:48:03 So a little bit of a theme going on there with him. But he had over one hundred and fifty film and television roles along the way, including a lot of stuff in John Wayne films. So John Lormer lost all the way back in nineteen eighty six at seventy nine years old. We appreciate your contributions and happy birthday to you. And last but not least, on our remembrance list, we have actor Roger Perry. He's the actor who played John Christopher in Star Trek the original series first season episode Tomorrow is Yesterday. He began acting in movies all the way back in nineteen fifty eight and then soon thereafter got into television. No stranger to science fiction and horror.

1:48:44 He's got a lot of that under his belt, including movies like nineteen sixty seven's The Prophet and playing count Yorga in Vampire from nineteen seventy. He actually sidelined not only as an actor, but as a composer and songwriter for Los Angeles theater productions, including a mid nineteen eighties musical version of Jor Bernard Shaw's You Never Can Tell, which featured his future wife, Joyce Boulefant. Happy Birthday to Roger Perry, lost back in twenty eighteen at the age of eighty five years old. And that was the quick and dirty on our remembrances this week. Guys, I'm gonna pass this birthday candle over to Charles.

1:49:25 Oh, thank you, Eric got a few short ones from mine. Let's start out the Happy Birthday to Jeff Lester, actress and filmmaker who portrayed the FBI in Tiger Interrogator in Star Trek four The Voyage Home, one of my favorite Star Trek movies. Happy Birthday, John rashaka Karma, actress who made his film debut as Commander Sonik in Star Trek the Motion Picture. Happy Birthday to Melinda Qa, actress and former model who portrayed Soren and g and Gee's fifth season episode The Outcast. Definitely a good character that we ought to talk about sometime.

1:50:17 And last one of my list. But not not to get away with a good one, very very happy birthday is Santiago Cabrera and that Venezuelan borne Chilean British actress who played Chrystoball Rios in the first and second season of Per Card. Love Captain Rios. Sorry we didn't get more of him later on. I hope we would love to see more of him come back as him or as being one of his holograms. Paul, who's on your list?

1:50:57 Thank you? Charles. Well. First of all, we got a serious contender here for one of the all time greats I think in the Star Trek universe, and that is the great Mark Alima. Okay, we must immediately think of as legendary Kardassian all in more episodes of Star Trek's Deep Space nine and we could possibly ever list. But he holds also the unique and distinguishing honor of being one of the very first two Romulans we see in the Next Generation era and also the very first Cardassian ever seen in Star Trek. But this guy is phenomenal. I mean, it's just it's it takes a special kind of a real magic to be able to convey as much emotion as Mark Alima does when you're wearing so much prosthesis. It's a ton, it's a lot, and it's just and it's mark It's amazing, right, I mean, am I crazy? I don't think so. But it's just one of the things I love about Golda Cott is he's an awfully awful person and he's just terrible. Right. But Mark Alimo never played him as black and white, right.

1:52:11 You weirdly find yourself liking him when you feel you shouldn't sometimes because he's just He's not a black and white villain. He's super complex and there's all kinds of interesting shades to him. So it's an incredible performance, and he just kept building on the character from episode to episode. So mark Alimo, we salute you, Okay, amazing, amazing work. Happy birthday to Richard Cox, a New York actor who played the role of Carol Finn in the Next Generation third season episode The high Ground. Happy birthday to you, and oh it makes my heart seem to be able to say Happy birthday to the next individual, the phenomenal legendary John Rice Davies. Okay, who's been in Oh I'm I mean the lines at his autographic table are go out the door. Okay, we are acknowledging him here for being the holographic recreation of Leonardo da Vinci in third and fourth season episodes of Voyager Scorpion and the Brilliant Concerning Flight two of absolutely the best. The whole idea of him being a sounding board for Jane Way to relate to and to kind of project her her thoughts against was just genius, I thought. One of the best things ever on all of Voyager, I would say, But also just a legendary actor in and on of his own right, of course, the infamous Gimli in the Lord

1:53:44 of the Rings trilogy, and thinking back to several different magical appearances in the Indiana Jones franchise, of course, this is Sola right in the Indian's Good Friend. I'm so pleased, India right, Indy, come here quickly. No, he's fantastic. I love John Rice Dave. He's very, very a talented guy, incredible personality. So happy birthday to you, sir Oh for the opportunity to meet you someday, it would be thrilled. Let's hurry up and make use of our time because it seems to be running out of the hour glass quickly, right, So over to uncle Jim. Well, I thank you so much, Paul, and let's not forget.

1:54:25 He was also in Sliders, another one of those shows that people often forget and overlook with Captain Jack Ransom himself, who was the lead in that show. All right, I want to say happy birthday this next guy. He's not a Klingon, but if you grew up in the eighties, you definitely know who he is. He's an icon of the eighties. He was in all all the movies I went to see with my girlfriend, my fiance, my wife I'm currently married to. We want to say happy birthday to Brian Tachi. And you're saying, who is he, Uncle Jim? He doesn't ring a bell. Well, look at him on the screen there, sure you recognize him now. He's the actor who played the role of Ray Tao in ts his third season episode and the Children Shall Lead. He also played Lynn in the TNG fourth season episode Night Terrors.

1:55:13 But he's best known for his characters Toshierro Taka, Toshiro Taka Kashi from the Revenge of the Nerds. You guys remember that movie, of course, and he was also the voice of Leonardo in the first three live action Teenage and Mutant Ninja Turtles movies, and there he is on the screen. I love those movies and I thought he was great. So Happy birthday to Brian Tos And last on my list, he was a klingon We want to say Happy birthday to Ron Canada. He appeared as Martin Benneck in the TNG fifth season episode Masterpiece Society. He also appeared as Vesek in Voyager's fifth season episode The Juggernaut, and as you can see on the screen, he appeared as the klingon Chapac and Deep Space nine's fourth season episode Rules of Engagement. And we're just about out of time, but we have one news story that we have to get to because next week will be too late. So Eric, what is our one and only news story that we're going to have time for this week?

1:56:20 Our one and only news story falls into the category of Shatner says what. William Shantner posted his annual Star Wars Day message, and of course he had to reference Star Trek. Star Wars Day isn't considered a national holiday, though it often feels like it should be, given how many notable Hollywood icons acknowledge and celebrate it. One of the biggest sci fi actors of all time, William Shatner doesn't seem capable of letting the pop culture observance pass without reminding his millions of geeky followers that Star Treks still reigns supreme. While plenty of trekkies enjoy Star Wars, and it's safe to say debates about franchise superiority aren't quite as fervent these days as they once were, It's always fun to see playful razzing taking place between the two fandoms. Shatner is a master at tongue in cheek controlling, and put his skills to work informing Star Wars fans who their real father is. He said, quote, remember Star Wars fans, without the Federation, you wouldn't be here. We are your father. May the Fourth be with you, Love Starfleet.

1:57:27 I just want to make things clear. Who's your daddy? Me Daddy Bill the sad Daddy. Didn't go into specifics on what that meant exactly, which is fine, since the term shat daddy has a way of making other subjects seem pointless. Perhaps he's referring to the influence that Gene Roddenberry's original Star Trek series had on George Lucas during the creation of Star Wars. Lucas shared in an interview for the documentary Trek Nation that his space opera franchise quote stood on the shoulders of Trek, and that his love for them sci fi series factored into his creation of Han Solo, Princess Leah and the rest. All jokes aside, there's nothing wrong with loving Star Wars more than Star Trek, or the other way around, or loving them both equally.

1:58:13 The important thing is that both franchises are arguably the strongest they've ever been in their runs, and both played a role in making being geeky a mainstream personality trait these days. And I will say that I continue to be enamored with the fact that nerd culture has become pop culture. I don't know how it happened, but it turns out we. Were all cool all the work along. Thanks Chattner for reminding us of that. Yeah, we had to get that story in tonight. The rest of our stories will move up to next week, guys. So I want to take an opportunity to say thank you so much to Paul for hanging out and and Wars talking with us tonight.

1:58:55 Thank you, Paul, super fun, super fun to do. I'm bringing bringing your friend along with us as well. Does she want to say goodbye or did she already leave? Oh? There she is, goodbye, Uncle Jim permanently. Live long and prosper And thank you so much to Charles for hanging out and War's listening with us tonight. Thank you, Charles, Oh, thank you. Always a fun time. And of course thank you to David for all the awesome work he does. Is our miracle worker on our awesome slide shows. Thank you, David, You're welcome. He's a gnome, he know hims everything. And of course thank you to Eric for hanging out and Wars talking with us tonight.

1:59:45 Thank you so much, Eric, absolutely, And I just want to say how much I appreciate Paul's most excellent summaries of these blocks of episodes. Man, you are totally killing it, dude. I feel like I've rewatched them every single time for us. Thank you so much. That. Yeah, it's fun to to condense it, right, I think it's just it helps me with what I do to be able to sort of, you know, wrangle multiple plots and figure out a good way to summarize them in a little nugget, right, I mean where it takes longer than it should, but it's I don't want to leave anything out. Well, he's going to have a lot of a lot to condense in the next block of episodes. That's all I'm excited for it. It's you know, the the way this show works is just the tempo just keeps building, you know, every single week. So it's just going to be great.

2:00:37 It's building up to Rogue one, and we're getting closer and closer by the episode. And I'm your most excellent host, Uncle Jim saying each and every one of you guys out there, please stay safe and be good to each other. Remember Star Trek slash Star Wars fans are the best fans. Thank you very much. Hailing frequencies are closed. Good night, everybody, live long and prosper. All stations. I'm ready for departure, sir. Some problem righter. I'm just hoping this isn't the usual way our missions will go, so oh, no, number one, I'm sure most will be much more interesting.

2:01:20 Let's see what's up there. Engage, Okay,